Comments on: On the report of the Joint Standing Committee of the Primates to the Archbishop of Canterbury http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/ Just another WordPress.com weblog Fri, 17 Jul 2009 19:04:19 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Karen McLeod http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1464 Karen McLeod Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:59:47 +0000 http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1464 To me the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" is all baptized persons, although many chose not to regard "apostolic" as we do. Thus with all these schisms we do nothing but wound ourselves. And the African and Asian bishops who choose to show no respect for their fellow bishops are tearing those wounds wider. I understand the Apostolic bishopric to be the outward and visible sign of the mystical Church present throughout time/space. Do current churches of all flavors mess up? Of course! Thank's be to God for His determined redemption of that which is broken! May we work together to make this Church, trapped as it is in our current troubles and divisions, more closely resemble the Church Triumphant. It would be nice if we could figure out some way in each diocese and in the National Church to allow the 'dissenting' communities to rent or otherwise to retain use of the Church grounds that they currently occupy, while at the same time making it quite clear that the do not own them, and that they may use them only as long as the TEC diocese does not require the land for its own congregations. I do not understand how that might work, but, and may God forgive me if I'm wrong, I suspect that the major interest that Akinola has in this country is in acquiring wealth to finance his own church, which will, ultimately, look little like anything we recognize as Anglican. At the same time, I suspect that showing mercy to dissenters works better than litigation in encouraging their return (and many may want to in a few years). As a holy people, while we must respect our fellow Anglicans, I think we need to reach out to those homosexuals within our midst. We need to utterly, publicly, and specifically defend them if/when they are attacked verbally, in writing, or physically. As much as I dislike it, I agree that for the sake of the Anglican Communion we need to refrain from public rites of union, but we need to tell the homosexual community that we welcome them and their loved ones, and that if cannot at this time, publicly celebrate their unions with rites, we can honor them in the sense of including them as a welcome part of our communion. And we can listen to the hurt that that statement causes, and try to find ways to ease that hurt. These people contribute plenty to our congregations, and its time to accept them as they are, rather than treating their sexuality as a dirty little secret. We ask for commitment to one person from our heterosexual community. Yet we accept less than perfect there without too much trouble. Can we not find some way to honor this ideal when it is present in our homosexual community, and respond with love even when they aren't perfect either? Bishop Henerson, Thankyou for your efforts to lead this fractious diocese. May God sustain your efforts. To me the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” is all baptized persons, although many chose not to regard “apostolic” as we do. Thus with all these schisms we do nothing but wound ourselves. And the African and Asian bishops who choose to show no respect for their fellow bishops are tearing those wounds wider. I understand the Apostolic bishopric to be the outward and visible sign of the mystical Church present throughout time/space. Do current churches of all flavors mess up? Of course! Thank’s be to God for His determined redemption of that which is broken! May we work together to make this Church, trapped as it is in our current troubles and divisions, more closely resemble the Church Triumphant.

It would be nice if we could figure out some way in each diocese and in the National Church to allow the ‘dissenting’ communities to rent or otherwise to retain use of the Church grounds that they currently occupy, while at the same time making it quite clear that the do not own them, and that they may use them only as long as the TEC diocese does not require the land for its own congregations. I do not understand how that might work, but, and may God forgive me if I’m wrong, I suspect that the major interest that Akinola has in this country is in acquiring wealth to finance his own church, which will, ultimately, look little like anything we recognize as Anglican. At the same time, I suspect that showing mercy to dissenters works better than litigation in encouraging their return (and many may want to in a few years).

As a holy people, while we must respect our fellow Anglicans, I think we need to reach out to those homosexuals within our midst. We need to utterly, publicly, and specifically defend them if/when they are attacked verbally, in writing, or physically. As much as I dislike it, I agree that for the sake of the Anglican Communion we need to refrain from public rites of union, but we need to tell the homosexual community that we welcome them and their loved ones, and that if cannot at this time, publicly celebrate their unions with rites, we can honor them in the sense of including them as a welcome part of our communion. And we can listen to the hurt that that statement causes, and try to find ways to ease that hurt. These people contribute plenty to our congregations, and its time to accept them as they are, rather than treating their sexuality as a dirty little secret. We ask for commitment to one person from our heterosexual community. Yet we accept less than perfect there without too much trouble. Can we not find some way to honor this ideal when it is present in our homosexual community, and respond with love even when they aren’t perfect either?

Bishop Henerson, Thankyou for your efforts to lead this fractious diocese. May God sustain your efforts.

]]> By: Joshua http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1351 Joshua Thu, 01 Nov 2007 23:20:00 +0000 http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1351 Michael, if the Episcopal Church considers herself to be "a precious part of the Body of Christ", then perhaps we should act that way. And another note, about suing people who have not changed the faith, the dioceses that want to realign are letting parishes that want to stay leave the diocese freely, talking their property. Perhaps we should take lesson from them? Michael, if the Episcopal Church considers herself to be “a precious part of the Body of Christ”, then perhaps we should act that way.

And another note, about suing people who have not changed the faith, the dioceses that want to realign are letting parishes that want to stay leave the diocese freely, talking their property. Perhaps we should take lesson from them?

]]> By: Richard Irons http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1345 Richard Irons Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:28:11 +0000 http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1345 Dear Dorsey, In respect to questions #2 "(2) What are the implications of the affirmation that “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church?”—or, what does it mean to be part of something larger?" After reading statements from some of the African Primates on how they are more in commune with Muslim beliefs I have to ask myself: Whose one and holy catholic and apostolic Church???? I just got back home from another battle with Cancer and starting to believe that I must have an expiration date tattooed on me which make me more aware of how silly most of the church's difficulties are. We should try an live what our Lord tried to teach us rather than argue about all things. Dee and I have a spot for our ashes when the time comes about at St. Augustines in Aiken. This spot is for sale since we have decided on a National Cemetery, both of us are verterans and eligible I personally have little faith left in the boisterous strains of the TEC in South Carolina, Texas, strange group in Central Florida Pittsburgh, Colorado and Virginia. I will have my affiliation with Christs Church, Cherry Valley, Prince Edward Island and the Anglican Church of Canada. It's been fun knowing and working with you since you became the Bish. You are still free to visit as a friend if you ever feel up to it. Peace, Dick Dear Dorsey,
In respect to questions #2 “(2) What are the implications of the affirmation that “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church?”—or, what does it mean to be part of something larger?”
After reading statements from some of the African Primates on how they are more in commune with Muslim beliefs I have to ask myself: Whose one and holy catholic and apostolic Church????

I just got back home from another battle with Cancer and starting to believe that I must have an expiration date tattooed on me which make me more aware of how silly most of the church’s difficulties are. We should try an live what our Lord tried to teach us rather than argue about all things.

Dee and I have a spot for our ashes when the time comes about at St. Augustines in Aiken. This spot is for sale since we have decided on a National Cemetery, both of us are verterans and eligible

I personally have little faith left in the boisterous strains of the TEC in South Carolina, Texas, strange group in Central Florida Pittsburgh, Colorado and Virginia. I will have my affiliation with Christs Church, Cherry Valley, Prince Edward Island and the Anglican Church of Canada.

It’s been fun knowing and working with you since you became the Bish. You are still free to visit as a friend if you ever feel up to it.

Peace,
Dick

]]> By: Michael Allsworth http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1326 Michael Allsworth Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:37:59 +0000 http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1326 TO Joshua ... The Bishop fights because, just like the dissenters we're suing, the Episcopal Church too is a precious part of the Body of Christ. TO Joshua …

The Bishop fights because, just like the dissenters we’re suing,
the Episcopal Church too is a precious part of the Body of Christ.

]]> By: Joshua http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1322 Joshua Mon, 22 Oct 2007 04:17:30 +0000 http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1322 Bishop, why, why do you fight for the Episcopal Church? It is sinking, and you are bailing water from the Titanic. Bishop, why, why do you fight for the Episcopal Church? It is sinking, and you are bailing water from the Titanic.

]]> By: Michael Allsworth http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1307 Michael Allsworth Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:47:40 +0000 http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1307 RICHARD, with respect, you have a narrow view of the Body of Christ. You ignored my (implied) point that the property doesn't "belong" to any institution or church in the spiritual sense, but is consecrated to the work of Christ's Body. To sue dissenters is to declare that TEC can do that work better than the local Body, and this (I repeat) DAMAGES BOTH THE MISSION AND WITNESS of the Body of Christ. When you can take this point seriously, then we can have a more meaningful exchange. RICHARD, with respect, you have a narrow view of the Body of Christ. You ignored my (implied) point that the property doesn’t “belong” to any institution or church in the spiritual sense, but is consecrated to the work of Christ’s Body. To sue dissenters is to declare that TEC can do that work better than the local Body, and this (I repeat) DAMAGES BOTH THE MISSION AND WITNESS of the Body of Christ. When you can take this point seriously, then we can have a more meaningful exchange.

]]> By: Richard Irons http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1306 Richard Irons Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:06:26 +0000 http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1306 Michael: The property does not belong to the congregations! If they decide to leave, then leave knowing they would be welcomed back if that time ever came about. If your offspring decided to leave home would you allow them to take their rooms? Michael: The property does not belong to the congregations! If they decide to leave, then leave knowing they would be welcomed back if that time ever came about. If your offspring decided to leave home would you allow them to take their rooms?

]]> By: Michael Allsworth http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1301 Michael Allsworth Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:38:26 +0000 http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1301 I am still embarrassed that Bishop Henderson is ignoring the scandal of TEC's ongoing lawsuits against dissenters. To quote the Bishop above: "Remember the description of the Church as the Body of Christ, with Jesus Christ himself the head of the Body—and all parts indispensable. If we are not all present and all exercising our gifts, the Body is not functioning as effectively or as efficiently as the Spirit has designed it—in discernment as in mission." Respectfully, why can't this wise counsel be applied to those wishing to depart in peace with the property they need to continue mission as part of the Body of Christ? To persist in lawsuits against fellow members of that Body tells the world loudly and clearly that TEC's self interest is more important than the mission and witness of the larger Body of Christ. Surely Christ Himself weeps over this injury to His Body . . . I am still embarrassed that Bishop Henderson is ignoring the scandal of TEC’s ongoing lawsuits against dissenters. To quote the Bishop above:

“Remember the description of the Church as the Body of Christ, with Jesus Christ himself the head of the Body—and all parts indispensable. If we are not all present and all exercising our gifts, the Body is not functioning as effectively or as efficiently as the Spirit has designed it—in discernment as in mission.”

Respectfully, why can’t this wise counsel be applied to those wishing to depart in peace with the property they need to continue mission as part of the Body of Christ? To persist in lawsuits against fellow members of that Body tells the world loudly and clearly that TEC’s self interest is more important than the mission and witness of the larger Body of Christ. Surely Christ Himself weeps over this injury to His Body . . .

]]> By: Richard Irons http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1284 Richard Irons Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:08:54 +0000 http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1284 on "(3) How do we honor the Anglican Communion’s commitment to “listen to the experience of homosexual persons (and to) assure them that they are loved by God and…full members of the Body of Christ” (Lambeth Resolution 1.10. Your suggestions?" Just do it rather than pussyfoot around the issue! on “(3) How do we honor the Anglican Communion’s commitment to “listen to the experience of homosexual persons (and to) assure them that they are loved by God and…full members of the Body of Christ” (Lambeth Resolution 1.10. Your suggestions?”

Just do it rather than pussyfoot around the issue!

]]> By: Patricia Bailey Conway http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1283 Patricia Bailey Conway Tue, 09 Oct 2007 17:25:55 +0000 http://upperscvii.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/on-the-report-of-the-joint-standing-committee-of-the-primates-to-the-archbishop-of-canterbury/#comment-1283 I have listened to homosexual friends say to me,"There is no place in the Christian church for me." I have tried without success to convince them otherwise. They will only be convinced when we show them by our actions that we recognize them as our absolute peers, God's creation and God's children all, loved equally and redeemed equally by Christ's sacrifice. I try to put myself in their shoes and I do not think I would be any more convinced than they are by the words and actions of many people who call themselves Christians. The statement of the House of Bishops is at least a beginning point. Beyond calling for an end to persecution, violence and discrimination, we must offer love and communion as Christ surely does to all of us. I have listened to homosexual friends say to me,”There is no place in the Christian church for me.” I have tried without success to convince them otherwise. They will only be convinced when we show them by our actions that we recognize them as our absolute peers, God’s creation and God’s children all, loved equally and redeemed equally by Christ’s sacrifice. I try to put myself in their shoes and I do not think I would be any more convinced than they are by the words and actions of many people who call themselves Christians. The statement of the House of Bishops is at least a beginning point. Beyond calling for an end to persecution, violence and discrimination, we must offer love and communion as Christ surely does to all of us.

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